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DUNGBEETLEMANIA

nothing is a waste of time
Articles Posted: 63  Links Seeded: 1585
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Catholics - did you go to church yesterday? Will you go tomorrow?

Sat Apr 3, 2010 9:42 AM EDT
news, religion, power, catholic, vatican, pope, catholicism, cover-up, holy-see, abuse-child-abuse
By dungbeetlemania

Live Poll

Did you go to your usual Good Friday service yesterday?

View Results
  • 91354
    Yes
    32%
  • 91355
    No
    68%

VoteTotal Votes: 22

Live Poll

Will you go to your usual Catholic service tomorrow?

View Results
  • 91358
    Yes
    38%
  • 91359
    No
    62%

VoteTotal Votes: 26

Live Poll

Will you continue to listen to a group of celibate men, who have proved themselves disinterested in the welfare of others, when it comes to issues regarding your body and reproductive rights?

View Results
  • 91360
    Yes
    13%
  • 91361
    No
    42%
  • 91362
    I've been ignoring them on this issue for a while
    46%

VoteTotal Votes: 24

1

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Right from the start, here is my full disclosure: I am not a Catholic. I do not intend this article to be offensive, so please do not take it as such. What I do want is to find out what Catholics (the congregants, not the clergy) are thinking regarding the current issues their Church is facing.

Unless you've been living under a rock the last few weeks, you will know the issues I am referring to. Still, I feel that I need to lay out the facts that are pertinent to my question, so here is a brief synopsis of what has happened so far:

In recent years there have been a number of allegations that certain priests and (less often) nuns employed by the Catholic Church had abused children. This abuse was both physical and sexual, with the latter becoming the focus of attention more recently. In the last few years, the Church has paid billions of dollars in compensation to victims of abuse, driving some diocese and one entire order into bankruptcy.

It has since emerged that the Church systematically moved offending priests around, transferring them from parish to parish, rarely defrocking them and almost always maintaining utmost secrecy as to what was happening. This was not the result of a few Bishops acting alone to protect a few priests - in 1962 the Vatican issued a document called Crimine solicitationies, which instructs clergy to treat cases of abuse with the 'strictest' secrecy. They are also instructed to get the victims to take an oath of secrecy. Anyone who speaks out is to be excommunicated. This document, bearing the seal of then-Pope John XXIII, was sent to every Bishop in the world.


The Catholic Church has made much of the claim that this document "has not been used for decades" (I am paraphrasing here). However, it later emerged that a much more recent document not only confirms the instructions of the 1962 decree, but takes it further. It claims that the Church has ultimate jurisdiction over such cases, and that "Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret". The real bombshell, however, is that this was penned by none other than the head of the Church's Diocesan Council (Doctrine of the Faith), which deals in issues relating to especially grave sins, including child abuse. The Diocesan Council was headed by one Archbishop Ratzinger at the time, now Pope Benedict XVI.

In other words, orders to cover-up allegations of child abuse went right to the top of the Church hierarchy, were official doctrine, and anyone who spilled the beans would be excommunicated. For those who don't know, in Catholic terms excommunication means that you cannot go to heaven when you die.

It has since also emerged that a Reverend Lawrence C. Murphy was accused of molesting 200 boys at a school for the deaf in the period 1950 to 1974. In 1996 Cardinal Ratzinger (again as head of the Doctrine of the Faith) was made aware of these claims, but stopped the process when Rev. Murphy appealed directly to him, claiming to be ill (which he was), and to have repented (which he may have, but which should be irrelevant). Rev. Murphy died two years later, his victims never having received any official recognition of their suffering.

More recently, now that Archbishop Ratzinger is installed as Pope Benedict XVI, the Church has found it difficult to stop the tide. However, instead of stepping up, admitting sin and guilt, and starting a process of purging of abusive clergy and putting things in place to help the victims, the Church has gone on the attack. In a letter of apology to Irish Catholics (not the nation, not nationals of any land other than Ireland, and not Irish ex-Catholics who left the Church in disgust), Pope Benedict XVI blamed the secularisation of society for the abuses by priests. He alluded to "mistakes" rather than crimes, and no apology was made for his own or any others' involvement in the cover-up. Many Irish Catholics, and particularly the victims, were outraged.

Since then, various members of the clergy have sought to further deflect the Church's central role in the scandal. They have blamed the sexual revolution of the 60's, the secularisation of society and homosexuals for the Church's current woes. They blamed Satan for influencing the New York time to write articles critical of the Church. And, perhaps most repugnantly, the Rev. Raniero Cantalamessa (the only Vatican official who can preach to the Pope) claimed that the current criticism of the Catholic Church reminded him of anti-Semitism. He read from a letter sent by a Jewish friend, which led the Vatican to quickly claim it was not an official Vatican statement, because it was Rev. Cantalamessa's own thoughts. The fact that it was part of his sermon to the Pope seems to be lost on them - if this sermon cannot be seen as coming from the Vatican, how can any sermon have any backing from the Vatican? How do Catholics now know what is Vatican doctrine? Further underscoring the absurdity of this claim, the official Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, ran the remarks in its Saturday edition.

To its credit, the Catholic Church in Germany seems to be taking things a little more seriously. The head of the German Bishops Conference, Archbishop Robert Zollitsch, has admitted that clerics failed to help victims of abuse because of a "wrongly intended desire to protect the Church's reputation." And the Church there set up a hotline for victims of abuse to phone to try to get them help. However, the number of victims was massively under-estimated, with the hotline having to shut down after just 162 out of 4459 callers could be helped. And this was on the first day of operation.

Yesterday's Good Friday sermons, considered by many to be the most sacred day on the Christian calendar, were marked by congregations refusing to sit throughout Germany. While this may sound like a small act of defiance, it is a huge deal in an organisation where the hierarchy is so strictly elucidated and enforced. Young Catholics learn, through their catechism classes, that the male-dominated structures of the Church were put in place by God. To defy the structure of worship is a very big step, and illustrates the level of anger in the German Catholic community. It is this anger, no doubt, that has led to the concessions by the German Church while other nations have not see such admissions.

The entire debacle highlights the nature of the Catholic Church. The deflections of blame, the denials in the face of facts, the attempts to garner support by painting the Church as a victim, the cover-ups and the careful use of words like "mistake" and "mispoke" show the Church hierarchy for what they are: political animals. It all points to this being a political and commercial organisation, which will do everything in it can to protect those in power and its reputation. The fact that the Church has paid out such incredible sums in compensation, while good for the victims, begs the question of why a religious organisation has access to that sort of money. The tithes are paid over in good faith to further the aims of the Church, which is supposed to be helping the poor and spreading the gospel. The kind of money we are talking about would alleviate a large amount of suffering in areas where the poorest live, but instead the Church moves into those areas and takes their money as tithes. And to add insult to injury, this money is allowed to be collected tax free and whisked away to the Holy See. Not only does the country where the destitute are living not generate tax income to help its citizens, but much of the money is not used there by the Church either. It pays for art collections, buildings, opulent dinners and sex abuse victims in the wealthy countries. One wonders how much will be left to pay the victims of abuse in the third world when they start coming forward.

So, my questions to the Catholics who have read this far are: Did you go to your usual Good Friday service yesterday? As more and more comes out over the course of today, will you go to your usual Catholic service tomorrow? And for the women in particular: will you continue to listen to a group of celibate men, who have proved themselves disinterested in the welfare of others, when it comes to issues regarding your body and reproductive rights?

I have created a poll, but would like to hear further explanations to your answers in the comments below.

Links to various sources:

Vatican told bishops to cover up sex abuse

Crimine solicitationies

Pope 'obstructed' sex abuse inquiry

Did Archbishop Ratzinger Help Shield Perpetrator from Prosecution?

A ‘Pontifical Secret,’ Ratzinger’s 2001 Letter Ordered Bishops to be Quiet on Sex AbusePope accused of covering up US priest's abuse of 200 deaf boys

Pope releases letter and apologies aimed at the Irish

Papal letter fails to calm anger over Irish abuses

Catholic church hotline in meltdown over paedophile priests

Worshippers revolt in church as German Catholic leaders admit abuse

Pope's preacher says attacks on Catholics are like antisemitism

Pope’s priest: Abuse flak like anti-Semitism

Italian exorcist: Devil made NY Times attack Pope

Vatican Priest Likens Criticism Over Abuse to Anti-Semitism

Why Are Pedophilia-Hiding, Child-Abusing Church Fathers Allowed to Write Laws About Women's Bodies?

La preghiera sacerdotale
è un esame di coscienza per la Chiesa

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  • dungbeetlemania's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: Atheism 101, Invisible Viners, Open Mic, Question Authority
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  • Public Discussion (44)
dungbeetlemania

This is likely to be highly emotive, so please stick by the COH.

Non-Catholics, please don't vote in the poll. I really do want to see how the numbers turn out. You are of course welcome, and indeed encouraged, to add your voice in the comments.

  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 9:44 AM EDT
Beauty

Catholics - did you go to church yesterday? Will you go tomorrow?

I think it is a bit harsh to ask ordinary folk this personal question, for some, their religion is their life. I will not agree with "It is the opium of the people", neither. Catholic Priests committed these hideous crimes and it is them that should be under fire.

  • 3 votes
#1.1 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 3:58 PM EDT
dungbeetlemania

They're welcome to answer it or not, and the poll is the perfect avenue since nobody can see what they voted for.

Catholic Priests committed these hideous crimes and it is them that should be under fire.

That's the basis of the question. I want to know whether the actions of the Church hierarchy has made them change their feelings towards the Church, and question their allegiance to it.

  • 5 votes
#1.2 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 4:13 PM EDT
tangojones

Your third poll question is loaded and biased - so it's not worth participating in this poll.

  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 3:47 AM EDT
dungbeetlemania

tangojones, I didn't intend for it to be biased but I can see that it could seen to be. The other two aren't affected by that, so if you'd like to answer those I'd appreciate it, otherwise thanks for stopping by all the same :)

  • 3 votes
#1.4 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 3:55 AM EDT
tangojones

Thanks, D. I will. Though I don't take my marching orders from Rome, I generally agree with, and try to abide by, the basic tenets of the Catholic Church - though not always successfully. I consider myself an observant Catholic, even though my church attendance is spotty. But in my life I am guided by my personal faith and conscience. The revelations of pedophilia have given the church a black eye - and unfairly tainted the entire institution. The priests we've known in our parish have been the very model of christian charity. But I am disgusted and outraged by any abuse of trust by anyone in the church - and they should be dealt with swiftly and severely. Even if it were the Pope himself. I'm not sure if the incidence of child abuse is any higher in the church than it is in the general population, but there should be ZERO tolerance for it in either arena - including for anyone who covers for it. I align myself with the Vatican, and my conscience on the issue of abortion.

  • 2 votes
#1.5 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 4:24 AM EDT
dungbeetlemania

Thanks for the reply. I agree that there is plenty of abuse outside the Church, but it is the orchestrated cover-up that has made people so angry.

  • 3 votes
#1.6 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 5:02 AM EDT
Reply
GoldenGateMami_Susi

I'm a CC. Cafeteria Catholic.

I pick and choose how much or how little of my Church I want or need in my life.

My faith or beliefs, however, never waiver. There is a difference between being loyal to an entity and being loyal to those core virtues that make up someone's character. Push comes to shove, my faith and beliefs will always win

I gave up Lent for Lent ages ago. I make sacrifices year around because I choose to not because it's expected of me at a set time during the year. I go to Mass when my spirit needs it.

What I do daily is pray. Privately. I say the Rosary from time to time. I read the Bible.

Warming up a pew and reciting long memorized prayers isn't my idea of truly living out my Catholic faith.

If today we were seeing a pre-Vatican II Catholic Church I would be on the excommunicate list.

But so be it. The alternative is that the Church looses yet another Catholic.

If they don't wise up they'll continue. As it is, they have major issues is dicernments into the religious life.

So, nope. I didn't do the traditional 3 hour meditation, Stations of the Cross Good Friday thing. Nor will I attend Mass.

But, I will pray. Light candles for the souls of my loved ones and enjoy the day with my family.

  • 5 votes
Reply#2 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 10:19 AM EDT
dungbeetlemania

Thanks for reading and for your honest reply. Your faith seems more personal than the traditional Catholic Church would like it to be, and to be honest it's the kind of faith I am far happier seeing in others.

  • 5 votes
#2.1 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 10:26 AM EDT
GoldenGateMami_Susi

:) Good article dungbeetlemania. Relevant because cafeteria or devout or in between, we're all questioning, struggling with yet another scandal and it does affect us.

And you're welcome and you're right a personal faith is more important than a faith that is based on the desires of others.

Happy Easter to you and yours!

  • 4 votes
#2.2 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 10:35 AM EDT
Barbie-1739059

I'm a devout Catholic. Yes, I went to the 3 hr meditation on the passion my CHRIST, yes, i did the Stations of the Cross, to remember and meditate on his passion. I do this evey friday, all year round, not just Lent. I did the all Good Friday thing to commerorate the death of my Savior. NOT BECAUSE THE POPE OR ANYONE ELSE TOLD ME TO, BUT BECAUSE I DESIRED TO REMEMBER THE PASSION OF MY SAVIOR AND REMEMBER THE SACRIFICES HE OFFERED FOR ME. Yes, I could have done this on my own on my living room couch but i felt that it would be better to do this with other people. As the Christ himself said, "wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there i'm amongst them" I pray privately as well and I try to say my rosary daily, again not because I'm told to do this, but purely because of my heart's desire. I also try to attend mass daily because I find that it feeds my soul. I consider my faith VERY PERSONAL". It is not dictated by anyone except perhaps JESUS. And as a matter of fact, I'm thinking about Religious life. These revelations, while hurtful and shameful, has done nothing to diminish my faith.

  • 2 votes
#2.3 - Sun Apr 4, 2010 7:40 PM EDT
dungbeetlemania

Thanks for your comments Barbie-1739059, I appreciate you taking the time to make them.

These revelations, while hurtful and shameful, has done nothing to diminish my faith.

Have these revelations done anything to hurt your trust in the Church as an organisation though? Do you see yourself interacting any differently with this organisation in the future?

  • 2 votes
#2.4 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 3:08 AM EDT
Barbie-1739059

I suppose I used to think that priests and bishops were holy men and above ordinary men in everything but these revelations have revealed to me that they are just men and they make mistakes. This is how I see myself interacting differently with the church, to not see priests as 'saints' but rather as 'men' who are flawed. As far as my trust in the church as an organization, I haven't lost that yet!

  • 1 vote
#2.5 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 10:06 PM EDT
dungbeetlemania

Thanks for the honest reply. I suspect that your reaction might be fairly common.

  • 1 vote
#2.6 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 2:08 AM EDT
Reply
Rick_VT

Very good article but, I suspect few Catholics will actually read past the first line or two before concluding it's just another bashing of Catholics.

I praise the German Catholics for their integrity and wish that the American Catholics had the spine to do this almost 20 years ago when this exploded into the light of day here.

I also praise the Swiss president for publicly stating that any child molester or child rapist - regardless of their connection with any organization - would be charged and prosecuted for their crimes.

Again, if only Americans had such integrity and determination to protect innocent children from such people - even if it contradicts the warped and perverse dictates of the Popes and the Vatican - the church might have already properly addressed the crimes and corruption that goes all the way to the highest level of their organization.

  • 5 votes
Reply#3 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 10:44 AM EDT
dungbeetlemania

I've come across surprisingly few Catholics claiming that the current scandal is Catholic-bashing. There have been a couple, but I think most are just sitting quietly. I suspect they cannot bring themselves to publicly say out loud what they are thinking, because the respect of the Vatican is so ingrained. It will be interesting to see if the poll gets more action than the comments, because that is to all intents and purposes anonymous.

  • 4 votes
#3.1 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 10:56 AM EDT
GoldenGateMami_Susi

Catholics cannot be bashed anymore or any less than what the church's heiarchy has already inflicted.

The issue isn't down in the pews it's at the altars, rectories, dioceses and archdioceses, the College of Cardinals and the Vatican.

The victims are the children and the grown adults that are warming and have warmed the pews for generations. We the families and friends of the victims are the one's paying the price as well.

You're right. Respect for the Vatican is ingrained in us. But, it most certainly does not mean we rubber stamp everything that comes out of there simply because we have respect for the meaning of what the Vatican is and what and who it represents.

We're humans not sheeples.

  • 4 votes
#3.2 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 11:25 AM EDT
dungbeetlemania

I think some religious folk, not just Catholics at all, are sheeples I'm afraid. I am also hoping that this unfolding horror will awaken people of a great many religious persuasions to think for themselves and question as you do.

  • 4 votes
#3.3 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 11:33 AM EDT
GoldenGateMami_Susi

I agree.

People always ask me how I can remain a Catholic even through the scandal and having it affect me personally.

I always answer it's the same thing as me being American through the bad, good, ugly and indifferent we have suffered through.

It's who I am and it's what I belong to. But with both, I can separate myself from the entity. My patriotism and my loyalty to country and religious identity are one thing my faith, beliefs and who I am are another.

It's my very own personal separation of church, state and me.

  • 4 votes
#3.4 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 11:50 AM EDT
Rick_VT

The Vatican officials themselves are claiming that this issue is just the satanic attack on their beliefs = Catholic Bashing. I've seen many on the Vine here take that very stance in comments - cross in hand and head up their butt (but I think the head thing might be protection to keep priests out of it).

  • 3 votes
#3.5 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 11:57 AM EDT
dungbeetlemania

It's my very own personal separation of church, state and me.

That's an awesome way to look at it, well done!

(but I think the head thing might be protection to keep priests out of it).

You, Rick_VT, are going to come over to my house and clean the wine out of my keyboard. :D

  • 3 votes
#3.6 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 12:05 PM EDT
GoldenGateMami_Susi

:) DBM thank you.

LOL Rick

Bravo! It's what I call the "Dying Saint" syndrome. The eyes looking heavenward, the plain wooden cross held tightly against a heaving chest (free hand behind the back fingers crossed)

  • 3 votes
#3.7 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 1:37 PM EDT
Barbie-1739059

Blaming the entire catholic Church for a "few bad men" is beyond absurd. This is trial for the church and the church will overcome it, just as she has overcome trials in the past. This is the true church of Christ!

  • 2 votes
#3.8 - Sun Apr 4, 2010 6:52 PM EDT
Reply
Pat-#@!&!#@

I was raised Catholic and had to attend Mass 6 days a week for eight years. I hated the way the Church made me feel. After I got my driver's license I never went to Mass again, well except for a few weddings, funerals and holidays. About 8 or 9 years ago my mother was visiting and I was obliged to take her to Church (she's a devout Catholic). After listening to the sermon which was about how great it was that we invaded Iraq I came out felling the same anger I'd felt as a teenager. Ugh!

And then it came out that the church was protecting pedophiles, I can't even go there. :-<

  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 11:46 AM EDT
dungbeetlemania

I'd be interested to know if your mother feels anger, disillusionment or anything else, or if she is managing to remain blinkered to the whole episode.

  • 3 votes
#4.1 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 12:35 PM EDT
Pat-#@!&!#@

She has anger but is still devout.

  • 3 votes
#4.2 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 1:36 PM EDT
dungbeetlemania

At least she has some anger.

  • 3 votes
#4.3 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 1:43 PM EDT
GoldenGateMami_Susi

Eegads Pat.

Yes, anger is good. It means she's still human.

I know plenty of devout but angry/feeling humans. They're just so ingrained it's kinda hopeless for them to come out of it.

  • 2 votes
#4.4 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 1:55 PM EDT
Reply
dungbeetlemania

Well done beatlemania. The stench of the Church is huge. They survive on fear and secrecy. They are so ingrained they cannot act any other way. Big beatlemaina.

  • 2 votes
Reply#5 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 12:04 PM EDT
dungbeetlemania

This is incredible odd, I did not write this comment #5. If you wrote it, please could you comment on here claiming it as yours? I'll send off a big report to the Newsvine team.

  • 4 votes
#5.1 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 12:33 PM EDT
GoldenGateMami_Susi

Ut oh that's kinda odd.

Did someone hack you?

  • 2 votes
#5.2 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 1:56 PM EDT
dungbeetlemania

I doubt it, I was busy posting one comment when both came up under my name.

  • 2 votes
#5.3 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 2:00 PM EDT
Soph0571

I didn't post it - but i agree with the sentiment!

  • 1 vote
#5.4 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 4:58 PM EDT
dungbeetlemania

Well that's one mystery solved. My father read my article and, seeing a place to comment, left me a supportive message. Unfortunately, I had logged into Newsvine on his PC ages ago, and it still remembered me as being logged in there. So it came up under my name, causing no end of confusion.

My father thinks it is riotously funny that anyone thinks he could hack anything other than a tree stump. For the record, so do I :)

  • 2 votes
#5.5 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 6:44 AM EDT
SeagullDeleted
dungbeetlemania

probably because you hadn't "logged out" of the 2nd computer.

Yup, that's exactly it. The strange thing is I am sure it was months ago. Those cookies are persistent!

My front page is also completely different, but I have moved modules around an added and removed some.

  • 2 votes
#5.7 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 5:01 PM EDT
Reply
SeagullDeleted
Martin Westenfelder

A person's religion is none of any other's business; nor the leadership he chooses to listen to, nor the service he attends.

And as long as the individual priest whose mass a person attempts, is not charged with credible allegations of misbehaviour, there is nothing that can take away from the value of his interaction with the community.

I consider the above article as rather unfortunate.

  • 3 votes
Reply#7 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 6:51 PM EDT
dungbeetlemania

Sorry about that. I am genuinely trying to find out what sort of damage these revelations have done to the relationship between the Church (as an organisation) and its members. If people don't want to partake then they don't need to.

  • 3 votes
#7.1 - Sun Apr 4, 2010 4:05 AM EDT
Barbie-1739059

These revelations has had no effect on me as a devout Christ follower and yes, as a devout catholic. To be a Catholic means to be a christ follower. When I kneel down and pray, I pray to God, not the pope. I don't know why you think that these revelations should have any effect on catholics.

  • 2 votes
#7.2 - Sun Apr 4, 2010 7:01 PM EDT
dungbeetlemania

I don't know if it does, that is why I am asking. In other some denominations people can move from one church to another if they don't like how it is being run. However, the Catholic Church is more hierarchical than some others, meaning that each individual parish is more responsible to the Vatican, and hence moving from one to another may not have the same effect. As I say, I am asking, not accusing.

  • 2 votes
#7.3 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 8:39 AM EDT
Reply
Holly-348328

I'm not Catholic, but Episcopal, which is jokingly referred to as "Catholic light". We do recite the Nicene Creed, and lately it's been difficult to say because of all the news about molestation and condoms.

Terrific article and great poll questions. I didn't do the poll because I'm not Catholic.

  • 3 votes
Reply#8 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 2:08 PM EDT
dungbeetlemania

Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for stopping by.

  • 4 votes
#8.1 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 2:16 PM EDT
Reply
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